Neutering...a step too far?

Hi everyone, I've just read 'Catlore' by Desmond Morris

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Catlore-Desmond-Morris/dp/0224025201/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1293623703&sr=8-1"]Catlore: Amazon.co.uk: Desmond Morris: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31EE36Cca6L.@@AMEPARAM@@31EE36Cca6L[/ame]

which contains many interesting chapters about how to 'read' your cat. But I was surprised to find the author suddenly very scathing about the common practice of neutering and spaying non-breeding cats. He describes the practice as 'mutilating' and 'butchering' your companion, and even suggests that the much-publicised problem of cat overpopulation is a 'myth'. Well, this book was written in 1987 so it's a few years old, but I'm amazed that an experienced zoologist could have this view. Surely the RSPCA and numerous cat charities are not lying to us? What would be their motive?

Morris takes the view that it is cruel to deny your cat his or her sexual life, and we should allow our cats to live their lives to the full, even if it means inconvenience to us, the owners. By neutering/spaying, we are reducing our cats to mere 'toys'.

He suggests 2 alternatives:

1- Don't have the surgery. Just keep your cat indoors at rutting times. Hmmm, doesn't seem like a practical solution to me. How would that work for a male cat anyway?

2- Have a less drastic surgical procedure, ie, tube-tying/vasectomy. That way, the cat still has a sexual life but is infertile, so no kittens. Problem solved!

Option 2 does prevent unwanted kittens. So why do we not do this? I have never even heard this suggestion before. Is it because we want to remove those troublesome sex hormones as well? What are your thoughts?

Interesting point of view… a friend of ours keeps two male horses and absolutely refuses to have them castrated, pretty much for the same reasons Morris gives.

I guess you could argue we shouldn’t toy-ify our pets for the sake of convenience. But I also agree option 1 is far from desirable for most of us.

That leaves us with option 2. Does this mean they still get in season? If so, this seems especially harsh on the females. Why let her go through all this… feeling restless, being chased and harassed by toms … and still withhold her the reward of a litter of her own? Seems just as unnatural and rather cruel to me.

I’m interested in reading other peoples’ comments.

A local vet who has spent considerable time dealing with stray cats told us that young intact male cats are predominantly interested in just two things: mating and fighting (other males). I witnessed the truth of this firsthand with a MC mix stray male that we eventually took in (after having him neutered). There are several reasons why he would have been a terrible pet and we would not have been willing/able to do anything more than leave him outside and put food out for him, and hope that he didn't run into a bigger intact male that injured him. This vet also said that many intact males get dumped/abandoned by people that don't neuter them but then find that they cannot be kept indoors due to smell, spraying, fighting with their other cats, etc. So, yes, it is the sex hormone that needs to be eliminated if young male cats are to be acceptable--and happy--pets. I would say it is much more cruel to leave the male with his incredible sex drive but then deprive him of all opportunities to fulfill it than it is to eliminate the drive. An intact young male reminds me of being a (sexually frustrated) teenage boy times ten! Not a state I would wish on any animal. :LOL:

Hey there
I think you have to just look at the number of stray kittens that end up in shelters to realise that there are not enough homes around for 'unplanned' pregnancies! And the suggestion of keeping your cat in when they are in season is hardly allowing them to have a sexual life, rather a sexually frustrated life...
I haven't heard of this guy but his use of such emotive language as 'mutilation' and 'butchering', irks me, when talking about controlled veterinary procedures.
Speaking from personal experience, neutering is very much the lesser of two evils. As a youngster, my parents kept uneutered cats- the males were agressive, wandered and were generally in less good health than the neutered males I have come across since.
I also believe that unfortunately, any animal that is kept as a pet, lives a rather unatural life- one that definitely has its perks, but unatural all the same. One of the aspects which makes cats a popular choice of pet is their cleanliness and I'm afraid that a cat which marks the house is quickly going to make itself rather unpopular. It's important to keep sight of the fact that our cats are pets and that as such compromises sometimes need to be made...
I also suspect that from a heart health point of view, neutered males who have less testosterone floating around should have less chance of developing heart issues..... Something which may have particular relevance to MCs.
That's my two pennies anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Catlover

I haven't heard of this guy

---

He's a biologist who's written a number of books... quite knowledgeable and sometimes controversial. His biggest bestseller was The Naked Ape, which is about people and how we're not so far removed from our primate cousins as we sometimes like to think. The book was a big hit in the 70s. :smile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Catlover

I also believe that unfortunately, any animal that is kept as a pet, lives a rather unatural life- one that definitely has its perks, but unatural all the same.

---

Agree with you about need for neutering, but not sure about the "unfortunately" part. When it comes to domesticated animals, it is not at all clear that the term "natural life" has much meaning. These animals have evolved for thousands of years to live with humans, so one could certainly argue that the most "natural" thing for them is to be with humans as pets. Domesticated animals definitely differ from their wild ancestors. For example, a little earlier I came across an article describing how feral domestic cats react differently than their African Wildcat ancestors to food sources like garbage dumps (hanging out in packs rather than remaining solitary). "Born Free" is just not applicable to domestic cats. :winkwink:

NCarver- yes I agree that there is a distinction between truly feral and 'pet' cats. I am however of the opinion that a completely indoor life is unnatural for even a domesticated cat (Dudley and sylvester are however kept indoors, I'm mainly worried about theft) and I'm not sure if cats would choose to live with lots of other animals if given the choice. I guess my point is that although we do our best for our pets, there's probably always going to be something we could do better. Don't get me wrong, I think pet cats have a fantastic time...in fact if I were reincarnated I'd want to be a cat in a nice home. And I reckon I'd rather be neutered than be climbing the walls with frustration, or thrown out because I am stinky.
It is interesting what you say about feral cats hanging out in groups. I was on holiday in Greece this year and there's a massive feral cat population there and they do seem to roam in groups. But then again, there were so many of them that you couldn't go a couple of metres without bumping into one of these scrawny (but surprisingly attractive!) cats. I wanted to cuddle them all but was expressly forbidden by my partner :LOL:. I managed to smuggle a couple of them a piece of calamari......:winkwink:
Regarding the sterilisation rather than castration, I'm guessing the urge is still there? And totally agree NCarver that it is much kinder to remove the urge than deny it by locking the cat up!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Catlover

NCarver- yes I agree that there is a distinction between truly feral and 'pet' cats. I am however of the opinion that a completely indoor life is unnatural for even a domesticated cat

---

I do think it is nice for our cats to be able to be outside in some sort of enclosure, but ours have lots of windows and bird feeders, etc. One girl got in the habit of going outside with me when we had a formerly stray cat that spent some time outside every day (on a tether). Of the other three, though, only the youngest male shows any real interest in going out. We have been debating cat enclosure for some time, but cannot decide what would work best so still do not have any. They do all love to go out in the garage, though, as there are giant cricket-like bugs that live out there all year 'round.

Certainly our cats live better than millions of human beings do, so hard to really feel sorry for them. I believe that for MCs at least, human interaction is one of the most critical elements for them to be happy.

I'm toying with the idea of taking the boys out in the garden on harnesses in the summer... I think duds would be fine but sylvester might be a bit more difficult! Our two like going in the garage too- I wonder if there may be some mice in there!

Thanks for some interesting responses. I suppose Morris is saying that ideally your cat should have free access to the outdoors and be able to mingle with other cats while outside, and to express all its natural outdoor behaviours, including copulation. Even if this means that they are smelly and aggressive when inside. Well this situation doesn't really apply to many of our MCs who are mostly enclosed, even if outside, and therefore will never encounter any other cats. I agree with Catlover that his emotive words are unnecessary and unhelpful. NCarver makes the good point that our pets are descended from many generations of domestic cats and what is 'unnatural' about domestication in any case. There has to be some compromise but I think it is most regrettable that the author of this book, amongst many sensible and interesting chapters, sets out to guilt-trip responsible pet owners and to cast doubt on the clear message of cat overpopulation which the charities have been at pains to communicate to the wider public for many years. I have seen it for myself when I worked at a local cat shelter.

The other thing about giving your cat free access to the outside to allow him/her to experience a full range of 'natural' behaviours, is the exposure to danger. A friend of ours has 2 non-pedigree kittens about the same age as ours who are allowed outside via a catflap at all times. One kitten was hit by a car 2 weeks ago and managed to drag herself home in a state of shock. After a trip to the emergency vet, a thorough examination and x-rays, they found she miraculously hadn't broken any bones and just suffered soft tissue damage. She was fully recovered in 5 days, but it still cost them £500 and it could happen again, with much worse consequences. They live in a very built-up area, probably too near the main road for this to really be OK. Again, compromises have to be made.

On a lighter note, just had a big struggle with Monty trying to get his worming pill down. Took 2 of us 6 attempts and still it appeared on the carpet. He's so big and strong and snakey, there's no containing him. So it's gone in his tuna and it's a battle of wills between us, whether he's going to eat it or not.... Larry though, straight down, first time!!

I had a kittens inquiry back in the 70s, this couple wanted 2 boys not for breeding but for pets, I let them go to hem as they seemed like as nice couple, I was not aware at this time of their views..

They refused point blank to have they neutered stating it was not natural, and cats in the wild lived okay with this?? both boys lived in the house most of the time with access to the garden , she said she always kept an eye on them and they would never roam, both boys got killed on the road, granted they where 7 and 9 when this happened but I felt it was just boys doing what boys do looking for a mate as both boys where found dead a long way away.

Neither boy fought with the other though, but they did spray all over the house.



I now have all my entire boys living as a colony they do not fight, they do not spray as they already know there own pecking order with out a fight and or the need for spraying.


They play and enjoy each others company and they go out side in the runs together and chase, but they can not get free so this is a little different, and they are here for a purpose, and will be neutered when they are no longer working, and I chose to live with the pungent smell, lol.... but not sure I would want it in a pet when there is no need.