Thread: My raw feeding experiment

Hi, sorry for the long absence… had a h*ll of a week but I saw the raw feeding thread has been revived so I feel I must chip in.

First of all, to Louisa/howlinbob. How absolutely marvelous to hear your lads are doing so well! Even old Barney got the spring in his step back… love it!
You really made me chuckle when you mentioned 'meat-flavoured cereal'. On a Dutch forum someone described kibble as chicken feed.

To Ncarver: you say “the pro-raw food sites claim that cats digestive systems allow them to eat bacteria with no problems--except they cannot cite a single bit of science to back up that supposed "fact."
That is true. But neither do I know of any scientific backup for the opposite claim: “Raw fed cats get salmonella and e coli infections more often than cats fed on commercial food.” I have searched and searched but couldn’t find anything.

To everyone who feels uneasy about raw feeding:
If you think feeding raw meat is risky for your cats, yourself or your family, don’t do it. Stick to the kibble & cans by all means.

I know of parents who refuse to let their kids participate in school projects where they get to grow their own veggies. They think it is unhygienic and hazardous to let their kids dig into the soil and nibble the raw carrots they harvest. Because the soil and the raw veg are full of bacteria which can make them seriously ill.
As someone who grew up in a much less germ-aware age I raise my eyebrows at that. But so be it. To each their own.

I can only speak from my own experience. Ever since I started to feed our Coonies raw meat all their health issues have disappeared. I talked to our vet about this and he is overjoyed and thinks I am absolutely on the right track.

As for the worms… you can easily tackle that by de-worming your kitties on a regular base.

However interesting I think this thread is getting, I am not going to write any more today… after the sh*tty week I've had I am pouring myself a big fat Cuba Libre and logging off. Back soon xxx Anna

You are right Antonia, this thread is getting interesting. I think there is a balance to be struck between the two extremes of being careless with hygiene on the one hand, and being germophobic on the other. I don't know about bacteria in the food supply chain in the US. Maybe it is a serious problem there. However, it is well-known that people who do not let their children dig in the garden, for example, and who obsessively disinfect all the surfaces in their homes, are more likely to be the people whose children have allergies and food sensitivity problems.

I have read that there is salmonella in kibble. But I still feed it. Cats fed a commercial diet die at epidemic rates from kidney failure and cancer, and suffer from high rates of chronic diseases like thyroid problems, asthma, and IBS due to bad nutrition. Cats certainly did not evolve eating dessiccated carbohydrates, nor did they evolve eating anything cooked.

Many thousands of people are feeding raw food to their cats (and dogs), and have been doing so successfully for years, with no illness: on the contrary, with excellent health results for their animals. It's simply a matter of sticking to fresh meat, in the right balance, with good hygiene.

Of course, it is a personal choice. There are no right or wrong answers. We have to decide what is best for our circumstances.

Originally Posted by Howlinbob

Cats fed a commercial diet die at epidemic rates from kidney failure and cancer, and suffer from high rates of chronic diseases like thyroid problems, asthma, and IBS due to bad nutrition.

Cat are dying "at epidemic rates" due to commercial cat food? Seriously? There are 75 million cats in the US. All but at most a few thousand are being fed a "commercial diet." In fact it is likely that most are being fed mainly a dry diet. I would assume that dying at "epidemic rates" would have to be much more than 1%. So you appear to be claiming that commercial cat food is causing more than 750,000 cats a year to die, in the US alone. Seriously?? The evil pet food industry is certainly doing a heck of a job covering this up.

In truth there is no epidemic of death; domestic cat lifespan is certainly not thought to be decreasing. While certain medical conditions like thyroid problems are becoming more common, there are many things that cats are being exposed to that are much more likely causes than commercial cat food. E.g., use of topical pesticides on cats has increased dramatically during the same time frame.

I have no problem with you choosing to feed raw food--that is entirely your business. As a scientist I will tell you that I do not know whether it is entirely safe for cats or not, and I do not know whether it will improve their health or not. No credible research has been done that allows us to answer these questions. But as seems typical for most raw food proponents, you seem to feel the need to make unsubstantiated, exaggerated, and just plain obviously untrue claims. You say it is each person's choice whether to feed raw or commercial, while in the same breath saying that feeding commercial food is causing cats to die at epidemic rates. So I can either feed raw or kill my cats, is that what you are saying? Or was this whole "dying at epidemic rates" business a rather extreme bit of hyperbole after all.

Originally Posted by Howlinbob

I have read that there is salmonella in kibble.

There have been a few dry pet food recalls in the past few years in the USA because of salmonella. A number of kids got sick from contact with the food and/or the pets, but the animals that ate the food were all fine AFAIK.

Originally Posted by Howlinbob

I think there is a balance to be struck between the two extremes of being careless with hygiene on the one hand, and being germophobic on the other. I don't know about bacteria in the food supply chain in the US. Maybe it is a serious problem there. However, it is well-known that people who do not let their children dig in the garden, for example, and who obsessively disinfect all the surfaces in their homes, are more likely to be the people whose children have allergies and food sensitivity problems.

True. Even worse, the huge increase in anti-bacterial this and that (catering to the 'germophobic') which is contributing to the development of 'super-bacteria' which are more deadly.

And the latest story on germs and pets which I just saw today: HealthDay Articles titled 'Pets May Pass Illnesses to Owners: Sleeping with or being licked by dogs or cats can be conduit for disease, experts warn'. Good grief.

Originally Posted by candes

Septicemic Salmonellosis in Two Cats Fed a Raw-Meat Diet -- Stiver et al. 39 (6): 538 -- Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association

But Candes, you know this article cannot be true, as I have read on every single raw food website that it is a fact that cats can perfectly safely consume bacteria on food. These researchers must have been paid off by the evil commercial pet food companies to lie!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. Thanks for uncovering some factual info. That cats can get salmonellosis was certainly already well established. The fantasy that it could never come from raw food will live on though, I suspect.

Originally Posted by Walter Coonkat

And the latest story on germs and pets which I just saw today: HealthDay Articles titled 'Pets May Pass Illnesses to Owners: Sleeping with or being licked by dogs or cats can be conduit for disease, experts warn'. Good grief.

What is it with this silly risk aversion nowadays? Reminds me of the 70s when people en masse dumped their cats because of a toxoplasmosis scare story in the media. Turned out the authors forgot to say most Dutch women have acquired immunity to that bug, and simple precautions are sufficient to minimise any risk.

Originally Posted by elismom

I agree with you there regarding that "news" story. I've had cats my whole life that sleep with me. My kitten sleeps with me at night, rubs my whole face with his nose until I get up in the morning and had a raging bacterial infection for months that is potentially zoonotic and I am well. I may be a bit if a germophobe but I have also eaten a sandwich at the same time as mucking my horse's stall. Reasonable cleanliness and healthy living go a long way in preventing illness. That much said I'm pretty sure my kitten would have died from the clostridium difficile infection had it gone on undiagnosed much longer. He had severe diarrhea and was going 5-6 times a day. After all the reading I've done from the much appreciated research you all have done I know I won't risk trying a raw food diet...My background is Economics/Poli Sci so I don't have education to draw on when making a determination about something like this and heaven knows you don't know what you can believe on the Interwebs!! Thanks again all!

I too had a horsey when I was a teenager, his name was Patrick. And I grew up with cats who were never dewormed, deflea-ed, or vaccinated. It just wasn’t done in those days. There was no antibacterial soap, and when you hurt yourself and broke your skin your Mom kissed you on that spot and that was it. It was a time when parents said: a little bit of dirt won’t hurt.

Due to an ‘underlying condition’ I belong to an at-risk group for severe intestinal misery. But it is not going to stop me allowing little Minnie to lick my face, snuggling up to sweet Tatja under the duvet or kissing El Monto on his cute little pug nose. As candes has said: at least I’ll die happy.

And it is not going to stop me feeding them the food on which I have seen them thrive more than ever.

I am probably being very unwise. But I’m doing what suits me best. And likewise I think everyone should do what suits them best.

Originally Posted by candes

Septicemic Salmonellosis in Two Cats Fed a Raw-Meat Diet -- Stiver et al. 39 (6): 538 -- Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association

I had seen that one too. It confirms what all the research says: cats are usually not at risk from salmonellosis, but it can occasionally kill them. Especially if they’re very young, very old or already sick. Unfortunately the abstract doesn’t say in what condition those two poor kitties were beforehand.

From the Salmonella Copenhagen article:
“Unconsumed raw meat should be not be left in bowls because of the potential for growth of enteropathogens at room temperature and for inadvertent contact by members of the household, especially children. Bowls should be disinfected shortly after feeding, and should be scrubbed to remove any food residue prior to disinfection.”

The same goes for canned foods and the bowls that have contained them. Once you’ve opened the can all kinds of bacteria start to have a ball in the bowl.

From your WVC quote:
“Numerous published studies document potential complications of homemade cooked or raw foods as well as commercially prepared foods. Owners should be informed of the potential for pathogen contamination and the risks to both pets and humans if raw diets are recommended.”

I think everyone in their right mind is well aware of the hazards of raw meat. But not of canned and dry foods... I imagine those risks are often underestimated. Perhaps cans and bags should carry warning labels.

@ Candes - Please don’t get me wrong. I really appreciate you taking the time to type all this up. But you are not telling me anything I hadn’t already thought of myself.

The point I am trying to make is this. As long as there are no sound epidemiological studies done on the effects of diet, raw vs commercial, everything will remain pure conjecture. Subjective and anecdotal evidence, as we have already discussed on here.

‘Common sense’ is a subjective concept. The pro-raw people also think it’s common sense what they are doing. There is obviously a standoff and I would love to see it cleared up. That is why I keep banging on about studies and how it is such a shame there aren’t any. They would be of more use than a spate of articles that are beside the point because they do not touch on the question: ‘what can be said about the morbidity and mortality in raw fed cats vs commercially fed cats?’

That’s all there is to it. Not more, not less. I am not trying to convince anyone into anything. I am surprised you still think that, because I have made that sufficiently clear more than once.