Thread: My raw feeding experiment

Originally Posted by FreyjaRoMaine

I've had to give up on the whole raw thing

What a pity! Perhaps they just don't appreciate that particular variety of ground meat? Ours also don't eat some varieties, but others they adore.

Originally Posted by Antonia

What a pity! Perhaps they just don't appreciate that particular variety of ground meat? Ours also don't eat some varieties, but others they adore.

I wondered about that - something you'd mentioned about textures in a previous post so they've been given raw chicken - large lumps and small lumps; raw minced lamb, raw minced beef, the frozen ground up stuff from Pets At Home in Lamb and Rabbit, and turned their noses up at both. To be fair, Wicca gave it more of a go than Freyja and ate some of the raw minced lamb, but the second time I put it down, she didn't want to know. Even tried putting some biscuits in with the raw in case it was a texture thing, but that didn't work either. And I also tried your trick with El Monto and Tatja by trying to hand-feed it to them, and got nowhere with that too. Very disappointing, and I'm not sure what to try next.

Originally Posted by FreyjaRoMaine

Very disappointing, and I'm not sure what to try next.

So sorry to hear that. Sounds like you'll just have to leave it be, at least for a while.
At least you did give it a very good try.
Princesses will be Princesses, as is obviously the case with your girls.

Thanks for the warning Candes. My crew are doing really well on the raw diet so far. They have about 70% raw food, 30% kibble/tuna. And they are wild for it. Especially chicken, including the chewy bits and bones. If I feed them kibble now, they look around for something better, and usually search the kitchen and raid the bin to make sure there's nothing more appetising lying around. I have noticed, as others have done, that their trays are much less smelly, and their coats are shinier than ever. My old pensioner has gamely joined in with the raw food and he's never looked better. He even jumped onto the kitchen table last night, from the floor, which he hasn't been able to do for months. I can't really argue with results like this.

And it's not really going 'back to their roots'. That would be sending them out hunting their own dinner. This is a compromise. It makes complete sense to me to feed them the kind of food that they have evolved to consume and digest. They are carnivores, after all. Even the best quality MC kibble is about 65% cereal, and what meat there is, is of questionable quality after such intensive processing. It's like junk food: lose all the goodness in processing, then put it back artificially. I even heard someone describe kibble (rather unkindly) as 'meat-flavoured cereal'.

Yes there are risks involved in handling raw food but as long as you have good kitchen hygiene and good quality fresh meat, it's an acceptable risk.

I have read far too many studies of the bacteria commonly found in the US food supply to be willing to do this either. I am concerned not just about the cats catching something but us humans too--particularly my daughter. I cannot think of any way of allowing the cats to eat raw meat without potential exposure for us humans. We are extremely careful when handling raw poultry before cooking because there is a very high probability it will have salmonella and other bacteria. Let the cats eat it and then potentially spread the bacteria anywhere in the house? No way! I frankly have been surprised that when looking at raw food suppliers I never found any discussion of them doing any testing of their products for bacteria. Does not inspire confidence in their products.

As for whether current human-grade raw meat is safe for the cats...well the pro-raw food sites claim that cats digestive systems allow them to eat bacteria with no problems--except they cannot cite a single bit of science to back up that supposed "fact." Furthermore, if you read about wild cats you will find that it is well accepted that they occasionally die from ingesting tainted meat--in spite of the fact that they will not eat carrion. Of course the fact that cats will not eat carrion strongly suggests that they are actually not highly immune to bacteria in their food, otherwise they almost certainly would have evolved to eat carrion. After all, we ingest bacteria all the time in our food without consequences, but all it takes is enough of say a certain strain of E Coli and there is a chance we will be dead or have massive permanent organ damage.

Just for further info on the safety of US food supply, here is what the CDC says:
"CDC estimates that each year roughly 1 out of 6 Americans (or 48 million people) gets sick, 128,000 are hospitalized, and 3,000 die from foodborne diseases."

"The most commonly recognized foodborne infections are those caused by the bacteria Campylobacter, Salmonella, and E. coli O157:H7, and by a group of viruses called calicivirus, also known as the Norwalk and Norwalk-like viruses."

"Campylobacter is a bacterial pathogen that causes fever, diarrhea, and abdominal cramps. It is the most commonly identified bacterial cause of diarrheal illness in the world. These bacteria live in the intestines of healthy birds, and most raw poultry meat has Campylobacter on it."

Even if our cats can tolerate standard levels of campylobacter--and it is utterly unsubstantiated conjecture that they can--I am not going to have my family exposed to this.

Hi, sorry for the long absence… had a h*ll of a week but I saw the raw feeding thread has been revived so I feel I must chip in.

First of all, to Louisa/howlinbob. How absolutely marvelous to hear your lads are doing so well! Even old Barney got the spring in his step back… love it!
You really made me chuckle when you mentioned 'meat-flavoured cereal'. On a Dutch forum someone described kibble as chicken feed.

To Ncarver: you say “the pro-raw food sites claim that cats digestive systems allow them to eat bacteria with no problems--except they cannot cite a single bit of science to back up that supposed "fact."
That is true. But neither do I know of any scientific backup for the opposite claim: “Raw fed cats get salmonella and e coli infections more often than cats fed on commercial food.” I have searched and searched but couldn’t find anything.

To everyone who feels uneasy about raw feeding:
If you think feeding raw meat is risky for your cats, yourself or your family, don’t do it. Stick to the kibble & cans by all means.

I know of parents who refuse to let their kids participate in school projects where they get to grow their own veggies. They think it is unhygienic and hazardous to let their kids dig into the soil and nibble the raw carrots they harvest. Because the soil and the raw veg are full of bacteria which can make them seriously ill.
As someone who grew up in a much less germ-aware age I raise my eyebrows at that. But so be it. To each their own.

I can only speak from my own experience. Ever since I started to feed our Coonies raw meat all their health issues have disappeared. I talked to our vet about this and he is overjoyed and thinks I am absolutely on the right track.

As for the worms… you can easily tackle that by de-worming your kitties on a regular base.

However interesting I think this thread is getting, I am not going to write any more today… after the sh*tty week I've had I am pouring myself a big fat Cuba Libre and logging off. Back soon xxx Anna

You are right Antonia, this thread is getting interesting. I think there is a balance to be struck between the two extremes of being careless with hygiene on the one hand, and being germophobic on the other. I don't know about bacteria in the food supply chain in the US. Maybe it is a serious problem there. However, it is well-known that people who do not let their children dig in the garden, for example, and who obsessively disinfect all the surfaces in their homes, are more likely to be the people whose children have allergies and food sensitivity problems.

I have read that there is salmonella in kibble. But I still feed it. Cats fed a commercial diet die at epidemic rates from kidney failure and cancer, and suffer from high rates of chronic diseases like thyroid problems, asthma, and IBS due to bad nutrition. Cats certainly did not evolve eating dessiccated carbohydrates, nor did they evolve eating anything cooked.

Many thousands of people are feeding raw food to their cats (and dogs), and have been doing so successfully for years, with no illness: on the contrary, with excellent health results for their animals. It's simply a matter of sticking to fresh meat, in the right balance, with good hygiene.

Of course, it is a personal choice. There are no right or wrong answers. We have to decide what is best for our circumstances.

Originally Posted by Howlinbob

Cats fed a commercial diet die at epidemic rates from kidney failure and cancer, and suffer from high rates of chronic diseases like thyroid problems, asthma, and IBS due to bad nutrition.

Cat are dying "at epidemic rates" due to commercial cat food? Seriously? There are 75 million cats in the US. All but at most a few thousand are being fed a "commercial diet." In fact it is likely that most are being fed mainly a dry diet. I would assume that dying at "epidemic rates" would have to be much more than 1%. So you appear to be claiming that commercial cat food is causing more than 750,000 cats a year to die, in the US alone. Seriously?? The evil pet food industry is certainly doing a heck of a job covering this up.

In truth there is no epidemic of death; domestic cat lifespan is certainly not thought to be decreasing. While certain medical conditions like thyroid problems are becoming more common, there are many things that cats are being exposed to that are much more likely causes than commercial cat food. E.g., use of topical pesticides on cats has increased dramatically during the same time frame.

I have no problem with you choosing to feed raw food--that is entirely your business. As a scientist I will tell you that I do not know whether it is entirely safe for cats or not, and I do not know whether it will improve their health or not. No credible research has been done that allows us to answer these questions. But as seems typical for most raw food proponents, you seem to feel the need to make unsubstantiated, exaggerated, and just plain obviously untrue claims. You say it is each person's choice whether to feed raw or commercial, while in the same breath saying that feeding commercial food is causing cats to die at epidemic rates. So I can either feed raw or kill my cats, is that what you are saying? Or was this whole "dying at epidemic rates" business a rather extreme bit of hyperbole after all.

Originally Posted by Howlinbob

I have read that there is salmonella in kibble.

There have been a few dry pet food recalls in the past few years in the USA because of salmonella. A number of kids got sick from contact with the food and/or the pets, but the animals that ate the food were all fine AFAIK.