Thread: How to Choose???

Originally Posted by jckkerrison

Doesn't always go that way,my friends girl had no end of wins against the boys for best cat in catagory 2 & she has also won overall best cat in the show more than once,that is under the FB banner.There does have to be a lot more than size!

Sure, it is not just size, but the point the breeders have made is that if you take two equally good MC specimens and one is a 22 lbs male and the other a 14 lbs female, the male will invariably score better. I just had a quick look at TICA site to see if there is any data to corroborate this belief. On the Best of International page I see three MCs from 2005--2010, two kittens and one adult. All three are males. If we look at the current MC standings, the top three are males. Number four, Chemicoons Firefox, is the daughter of the cat whose link I gave above. She was a very large female kitten, the largest out of 10 kittens in two different litters, and weighing more than the one male from each litter (one of those being our male Zephyr and the other being her brother who is ranked 6th, Chemicoons Wild Fire of Woodpile). While sex isn't given, a little googling seems to indicate that only two of the current top ten MCs are female. So, sure, while sex/size isn't the only issue, the fact that 80% of the top ten are male shows you that breeders are probably not wrong about it being a real factor in MC judging.

Wow, so much to think about! And some really great info coming from everyone. Are MCs at cat shows also judged according to their markings? I have looked at a lot of MC breeder's websites, and while some cats have very regular facial markings in terms of colour and symmetry, others have more unusual features, like a line down the nose, or a blotch on the forehead, or half of the face being a different colour. Would that be a problem when showing, or are other criteria more important? Also, what are the rarer MC colours? Some people mentioned tabby being quite common, what about silver etc.

In terms of the health checks, do you think it would be reasonable of me to ask the breeder to have an echocardiogram (to test for HCM) performed before handing over a deposit? Do all vets do those or do they need to be specialist ones?

Log onto our Tigga Towers lady's personal site Somersisle & you will see there a young girl who has done very well at Tica,done even more over the weekend but not yet posted,you will also see a boy called Dangerous & that will also answer your question about wether they need to have regular face markings,no they don't & he is a great example because he is also what is classed as a high white {more white than colour} & it is only fairly recent that high whites have been recognised under some banners for showing.All colours are now becoming more popular,silvers carry classic tabby or mackerel tabby pattern the same as all the other coloured cats barring solids of course.
You do need a specialist to perform echocardiograms & I am not sure if it is of benefit on a young kitten,NCarver is more up on all of that so no doubt he is the best one to advice but I see no reason why you couldn't ask for the gene swab test if the parents haven't been done,with my elder MC's it wasn't even thought about so just as a matter of interest because they are all neuters I had them done & they all came back negative,if the parents are done & they are both negative no worries,breeder has done their best for them.....
Going back to showing yes there are a lot more impostant factors than colour,if the first breeder can't advice you than try & find someone who can if that is the road you would like to take,my first show boy wasn't bought for that reason at all but when the breeder said he was of show quality & would like him to go out {after all it promotes their breeding as well }we got involved & luv it.Going back a bit here & as a matter of interest only, the boy Kruger under Texas Belle & Dangerous is my breeders new stud boy,11mths old & 10kg of purr machine....
Keep going with the questions,at this rate you could have a whole load of us from all different parts of the globe knocking on your door & coming along to help you choose...x

Originally Posted by Cherryshake

In terms of the health checks, do you think it would be reasonable of me to ask the breeder to have an echocardiogram (to test for HCM) performed before handing over a deposit? Do all vets do those or do they need to be specialist ones?

Echos are done on the parents, not the kittens. About the earliest you can begin to detect HCM issues via echo is two years old, so an echo on a kitten is likely to be pointless. What you could ask to have done on the kittens is something like the CFA genetics panel I linked to earlier. The HCM gene test is only for the most common cause of HCM in MCs, however, so a negative test alone does not guarantee freedom from HCM. This is the reason echos are done on the breedings cats as they age, and hip issues also have to be looked at in the parents. This is why you really should want a breeder who is regularly doing health testing. There are plenty of such breeders in the US, so there is no reason not to go to one IMO (unless you are trying to save money and find a cheaper breeder).

I would also say that if you definitely want to show and do well, you should find a breeder whose cats are doing well showing and talk to them about getting a show quality kitten. I know our breeder has encouraged owners to show several of her cats and that they have done very well (which in turn helps the parent cats with titles like Outstanding Dam). You can look at the TICA and CFA show standings to see whose cats are doing well. Here are the TICA standings I looked at:
http://tica.org/members/standings/stand_catbrd.pdf

Some searching questions there. I checked the price of the kittens against the recommended and it is within the normal parameters. The breeder is a relatively new one and has not been operating very long, so this might have a bearing on the lack of testing. The males and females were in big separate outside enclosures, with the kittens and mothers in the house. They said the female cats are normally allowed free roam in the home, and there were no empty pens. The mother certainly seemed very 'at home' in the house, and was totally at ease with the breeders and us. I am not entirely sure how a well socialised kitten should behave, and how to tell whether it is just shy or not well socialised. The older kittens seemed to vary a lot in behaviour - there was one shy and reticent one, one cheeky one, one that was not interested in us at all, and a very aloof one. They were certainly not cowering in the corner and trying to hide, and seemed comfortable with being handled. The smaller litter was still very small and we had arrived during their feeding and napping time. They perked up later on, and some seemed more playful than others. All were very happy to be handled and showed no signs of biting, scratching or hissing. I wondered if it must be daunting for those little creatures to have complete strangers in the house and picking them up, examining every inch of their bodies. If that was done to a human baby, no matter how well socialised it would be sure to object in some way, wouldn't it? Though obviously I am inexperienced with cats and am not really sure what to expect.

Have to agree with Candes really,if she is a new breeder than even more reason for her to be up on getting her breeding stock tested before she started,especially for HCM,also a bit surprised that she had such an obvious lot younger litter out & about,my breeder doesn't let hers out amoungst the others until at least 10 days after their first vacc.You are allowed to go & see them before that but if she has two seperate litters both are in different rooms & boy do you have to scrub up before you are allowed to touch one lot & again before you go into the others,once they are downstairs though no problem,I love to see all the little bundles running around getting busy learning what life is all about & then crashing on the spot when thay are tired.If you have got the option of visiting another breeder,do it before making any descisions,don't regret afterwards,we have noticed at work a lot recently that people are bringing in really poor specimens of "breeds",cats & dogs,have paid top wack,in many cases no paperwork & the sellers are basically relying on "when you see it you won't be able to leave it here"& getting away with it,you pay top money you expect to get the goods to go with it,four legged or not....

All these comments are really helpful in coming to a decision. I have been in touch with other breeders, and some of them seem a lot more knowledgable, so it will be interesting to contrast and compare these experiences when I am going to visit them.

I know it's the right thing to do, but it seems like a bit of a jungle out there. I wouldn't have any clue what a 'poor specimen' looks like (although I feel that sounds very clinical in the first place, since they are living things). I read through the info and criteria all of you gave me, but must confess that it makes little or no sense to me. A lot of it seems to rely on having seen dozens and dozens of both excellent and poor examples of the breed, but if you live in an area where catshows are a rarity and are just starting out, then it's hard to be able to inspect a lot of different adult cats, never mind kittens. Plus they do seem to change at such a quick rate. Nevertheless, I am so grateful for getting the advice of people who obviously know more than me before committing to a furry friend for life (or at least a very long time).

I agree with Candes,again,when you find the right breeder go for the mutual attraction,we had Shimba because we wanted to carry on showing when Merlyn retired & he was picked as best of litter for us by the breeder & also it benefits her breeding when people see them out but when we went to visit him Wellynton Boots came to us & invited himself to join our family so we booked him too,hubby then decided he would like to show him as well,another b&w was of higher show quality but we couldn't swap as the other one had chosen us,he doesn't set the show world alight but he has grown into quite a handsome man,he gets his certificates although rarely does much more but he is a joy to handle at shows,much easier than bruv,while we sit waiting to go up to the judge he lays on a chair beside you,rolls around & plays make believe,purrs away & in general attracts everyones attention,has even held up judging because everyone including judges have stopped to watch him,he makes up to the judge like there is no tomorrow,has even had put on his reports that he is the "Best kisser "ever with loads of hearts drawn everywhere,he is just such a pleasure & I have a lot more fun showing him than Shimba who can get a bit funny if he is nominated through to Best in show panel,fine until then but it seems as if at that late time of the day he has had enough of being on show & tells you & others to "stick it".Think I am about the only person who goes who is very pleased if her cat doesn't get nominated but as Candes says go along & enjoy with the babe that chooses you &
have lots of fun,make new friends & get to know more about our wonderful cats.Good luck when you get to go & see some other breeders,like everything I bet you will know when you walk in somewhere that you have found the right one,hope it is soon,not that I am impatient or anything to see pictures of new babe but.......x

Originally Posted by candes

Awww..... Wellynton Boots is a treasure! Lucky you! I bet a lot of those folks winning in the shows were envious of you. I know I would be. Too bad they don't give out prizes for personality.

I have to agree Candes, he is such a little darling that sometimes I could cry for him because you think yep,you do deserve something more,perhaps they should do a special class for "The Nearlys" as well as a class for "The Misfits" that some of us also have in the family,could be a lot of fun for everyone....